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Audio Files and Transcripts From Classes with Dr. Rolf Big Sur Lecture/Demo |
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Ida Rolf Audio Tape Transcript AUDIO FILE Tape A5 Side 1 MP3 File (aprox. 10.7MB) TRANSCRIPT Span in the Fascial Web and the 10th Hour Structural Integration Principle 5th Level Thinking Epistemologically Span in the Fascial Web and the 10th Hour (0:08 student) …I notices [ ] Rolf. I had a massage last night and I noticed a very major change in my body, which on the experiential level felt as though each of the-, all of the musculature, that they were now in strands, I was thinking that in terms of a – (0:28) Yea. They’re laid in patterns and in order (0:32 student) Yes. And they’re not as solid; None of the tissue is as solid as it used to be. It’s all much more discreet (0:44) This is true, and maybe you know, maybe you realize…(daily business dealings) (1:28) This is a good observation, but didn’t you know it was coming? And didn’t you realize this is what happens? And don’t you- (1:34 student) That’s right, but I hadn’t experienced it (1:38) yea, alright. I think I said in this room that a woman who once endeared herself very much to me, and she did it by saying to me, “The thing that impresses me most about what you’ve done for me, is the way you’ve changed my skin from cotton to silk.” And she was expressing the same thing that you’re expressing. But this was really a very vivid metaphor. (2:05) Now, it is important to you and to you and really to Hector to visualize what had been going on that had kept it from being that way before. And this is very important, and I really can’t help you too much with it, because you certainly can’t say there were no lines through; there were strands of muscle, there were strands of fascia, there were blood vessels, there were veins, there were arteries. The same thing is in there, and under your hands you feel the change. Now this is going to call for some smart researching sometime, and whose going to do it, I don’t know. I’m hoping that somebody will come out of the blue who is peculiarly well fitted for this kind of a job. (3:13) And I haven’t the foggiest idea what it means. Possibly it means a general change in PH of the tissue locally, possibly it means – this is the simplest way to express it – the greater energy that goes in there and makes his-, Hector, the sol, the gel a sol, possibly this is what it means. This is what I’ve taught that it means, but this is a nonsense teaching really. Because, what does it make into sol? Does it make the wall of the blood vessel sol? this is absurd… (4:12) So, all of this is part of the great vast unknown, which requires more than simply trained practitioners to solve it. It requires a whole research background, a research understanding, just as what you saw in that heart situation of Friday requires much more than simply a lot more researcher’s doing-, a lot more practitioners doing the same thing. (God knows, it requires that too.) But it requires an understanding, because out of this understanding has got to come a new physiology (5:00 student) what kind of changes, or are the changes you’ve experienced with animal work anything comparable to humans? [for what’s] under your fingers? If so, that would be an avenue for getting some more definitive– (5:18) you go start some animal work soon (5:24) Animal tissues are not up here the same as human tissues anyway. Certainly a dog that’s slinking around, you’ll have no trouble finding that there is a great big area where nothing is going through. But you don’t get that lovely silky feeling in animal tissue, I’ve known [several] come to think of it. I never particularly tried to feel it, but you don’t try to feel that silky thing, it just is there, and you have to settle for it (6:00) Now this silky business is something that comes in as you near the 10th hour. Sometimes it comes in in little local areas before then. (6:18) The only thing I can be relatively sure of is the fact that what you are feeling, is the fact that fascial plane can slide on fascial plane. That’s the only thing I can be really-, readily assume And as you get fascial planes sliding on fascial plane, and the actions of interference, you did feel what Don is talking about. Structural Integration Principle (6:50) Now I was hoping Don, that when you talked about you, “went down there and had a massage, and I was surprised,” I was hoping that the end of that sentence was going to be, “ I was surprised at the way the techniques of massage have changed down there.” That’s what I was hoping to hear. (7:08 student) Oh it’s changed radically. There is no question. (7:11) Since when? (7:16 student) Last year. It’s changed very, very much (7:17) Now, tell me how? (7:20 student) The person that was working with me; it’s much deeper, it’s much more specific, it’s much more in patterns then it ever has been (7:33) You see I have tried to accomplish this for several reasons. One, because Esalen has been getting a bad name charging $10 for massage that people say is no massage. Two, by bringing-, by [willowing] this by bringing up people who were training them in orthodox methods and massage. Three, by getting some of our people, like Judy Aston and to a certain extent Rosemary, but Rosemary isn’t that informed really about massage. But Judy Aston is reasonably well informed, and getting her to go down there and show patterning. (8:28) Because you see the orthodox pattern of massage is to bring all those muscles back muscles up toward the neck, to thicken it up through the neck, and otherwise I work real hard, and so does the rest of you in this room, to organize those muscles in pattern. The minute people go down there and pay $10 bucks for a massage in order to get them put out of pattern. And this has been going on now for years. And I have been trying to change that. I see no point to it, I see no sense to it. I know one thing, I can’t keep people from getting massages down there, so what I hope I can do is to get the [massagist] to get the people together. So this is why I am quizzing you at this point, to find out whether this has happened. Now this is a very pertinent question, and I bring this up to you, I’m sorry that Hector is not here, because he can do a lot with this subject, and so can Sharon. (9:34) Just yesterday, just this weekend, we had a boy in here working in the garden. His name is Joe. I guess some of you know him, he’s a nice lad, so he’s going on to get trained in massage, well, “whose going to train you?” well, Storm – what’s her last name?- is going to train him. I say, “yea, I know Storm is an awfully nice girl and I like her very much. Storm was trained by Bernie, and Bernie was trained by pretty much nobody. Storm has no standard standing, and probably will not have standing in the state department of licensing, when the state department of licensing takes to licensing. so you go out and you get trained by Storm and you won’t have any standing either, and you see this sort of thing is going on and on and on and on and round and round the mulberry bush. And for 2 years I’ve been doing this. And I hate that we keep going to look at the fact that people give me $350 dollars to organize their body. You are going to also have to look at the fact that what they are doing with their $350 dollars worth of body! It’s more or less the same story as the [Lowen] bit, and I not doubt for a minute, that if you people take this really seriously, we’re all going to be disliked thoroughly very shortly. But maybe look at some change in the general understanding of patterning of bodies. so I don’t know what to tell you to do, because most of you are working within the general framework of wrestling in the growth centers. And the growth centers where one is down at Esalen is the law of the prophets. But I do say that you’ve got to do something (11:48) Now in the next class there is a young woman coming down from San Francisco to be an auditor. She is a highly experienced masseuse, as far as I make it, and a very nice person, and some of you saw her up at that Berkeley meeting. who else was there besides you? You were there too Don? She looked like a European. No hippie. I mean she still had European forms about her… (12:38) she had an idea that she wanted to start a school up in San Francisco. I urged her to come down and listen as an auditor as to what was going on in here, and perhaps by the time she got through with that auditing we could get a school of-, for training which would be in accordance with our patterns. And this is what I’m hoping…(gossip) (13:36) and I’m just hoping that something good will come out of that, because you see, wherever you look you have the same problem, and it is the problem of putting a pattern on a chaos; Of reducing the entropy. And it’s neither more nor less, and it’s in every department that you look (14:02 student) This struggle, is the same struggle that’s been going on for centuries, probably even before the written word, that people who see a job to do, that runs perhaps counter of current social events, have a hell of a job on their hands. (14:23) I know it. You have elected to do it, ok. I don’t know why you elected to do it, it was pretty damn stupid, but having elected to do it this is where you’re gonna start. And it is you people who have letters after your name that have to put the pressure on it. There is no other way that I know. You’re going to be as I say, either seriously disliked, because people like to be left to go after their own ways, and their own ways make a random pattern-less situation. And yet as you look around you are all of you very well aware that everything that is going on any level of this world goes by virtue of a pattern. Everything that is growing. Everything that is coming out and adding to the understanding of a pattern. There is no such thing as a random-. A random situation is deteriorating. (12:49) So you all now know all I’m thinking about when I ask about what’s going on down at Eselan, and you keep watching, because all kinds of things get tried-out there. Now some of these patterns of massage certainly aren’t doing very much harm, except that they are doing harm in this fashion that as I say, somebody goes down there for a massage who has a very good idea of what a massage should be, and what he expects to get for what he pays for, and he goes down there and he gets something that doesn’t give him that at all. Then on the other hand, they get somebody to get a massage who is over-trained in the good old army and sports massage, and he takes them apart in a different pattern. And then there’s complaint about that. , etc. etc. and so forth (16:45 student) You know I sure would like to give you a massage; an Eselan massage. I’m on the Eselan massage staff, and – (16:53) I will not allow anybody to give me any kind of massage (16:56) or at least have you watch it. What you are saying is so out from what’s really happening that you’re obviously uninformed about what’s going on at Eselan in the massage rooms (17:05) I am uninformed, except I lived next to that massage room for three years or four and what was going on in there (17:25 student) That was then you know, because it’s different (17:14) Aright. That was then, but I’ve been fighting ever since and something should happened, and [Little Julian’s] been coming up here three of four times a year and going down and rolling up his sleeves. And [something should have] happens (17:26 student) But the whole point of a massage there is it is not what happens here, it is not [instituating] a pattern on the body, it’s not a deep massage, it’s a relaxing meditative experience (17:38) And I understand that and if they -, all right, this is what I’ve said all along. If they would call it that instead of calling it massage. This is what I’ve been trying to say for three years. If they call it something other than massage, than I’ll let them. And I’ve fought that since the days of college– (18:00 student) Well then that’s a semantic thing because it is what it is, and that’s what people-, most people who come for an Esalen massage want that and get that and are happy with it (18:11) People come to me and say, “what’s this stuff that’s going on at Esalen that they call massage. I paid them $10 dollars and it’s nothing.” If it weren’t called massage! Ok. What were you going to say? (18:25 student) I talked with many people who have been massaged down here, and I never heard any complaints. They all seemed to be very satisfied (18:31) Well I’m glad if that’s true, and I’m glad if it’s truer now than two years ago lets say. But one year ago I was still doing the fighting bit to keep them from rubbing that body up the wrong way. And this you have to do, because I think that what Eselan massage is doing is (18:56 student) It depends on if they-, for instance they had a guy come up from Queen Mary. And he was doing “that thing”, and- (19:00) That’s the guy I was talking about. Yea, but this isn’t what I’m talking about. I’m talking now about the kind of massage you’re talking about, and what I’m saying to you is, that kind of massage if it’s going to work, is going to work by virtue of an organization of two different bodies together. Now, if you’re going to take the finer body and put it out of relation to the coarser body, you do not have any-, you have a breaking down (19:28 student) That’s true (19:32) Now what we do in this course is largely a question of relating the coarser body to the finer body. That is what is going on here. And this is why it changes, and this is why it changes so fast, and this is why the sort of thing that you saw going on here last Friday can go on here. You are relating the coarser body to the finer body. Now the Esalen bit is approaching from the other side. Now this is alright, and I’ve got no problem, no question with it, but I do think there should be a differentiation. And another thing I don’t like in Shutz’s book is calling this-, or referring to it over and over again as deep massage. (20:24 student) yea, that’s unfortunate (20:27) This is very unfortunate, and if any of you can come up with a suggestion for-, a term which is more appropriate I’m sure that Shutz would be glad to get it. I’m sure he would. But he would say, if you’re going to be licensed under a license for massage, which literally going on, then what’s wrong with calling it deep massage? Simply because it contains the same semantic misunderstanding of calling an Eselan massage creates (21:06) but I think it’s pretty important that all of you should look at a number of these sources of confusion which hold barriers between us and Esalen. We don’t need the barriers. (21:28) there is also another item which I would like to talk about. I don’t think it’s been drug in by the hair of the head. It has to do with this. It has to do with semantics as a matter of fact. (21:53) there once was a-, I don’t know if he’s still alive or not, there once was a trustee in the general semantics who was very much devoted to old [Korsipsky] group. his name was Batchelard. And this man was a professor in one of the French universities; not at Paris. I think at Leon, or somewhere in there. I’m not sure. at any rate, this guy went off in the corner and he looked at things, and he looked at what he knew from general semantics and through general semantics, and he began coming up with a certain amount of insight concerning the way we organized knowledge; the way we look at things to get knowledge. And he came out with what he called the epistemological profile… This is where it came from. This man, Batchelard, and that was his work in French, and there was another French Canadian, Sam [block], who was down in Los Angeles, who was very much interested in this, and took and translated the material and put it into a general framework of general semantics understanding. And it was from Sam [Blauck] that I got it. (23:50) Now, what Batchelard saw was this; that primitively, and in a pattern which is still around us on all sides, people look at the world – at their incoming sensations – and try to organize them into knowledge, and say in the language of the western european, “This is so,” This is something that you hear in every direction. This is partly a problem of European grammar. Dates back to Aristotle and probably before. All of these European languages say, “This is so (24:38) The little girl goes down to the pond, the river, in the morning, and she sticks her toe in the water, and she says, “oow! It’s cold.” And the brother, who’s had some science in the 8th grade said, “ah. Who says it’s cold. I’m going to get a thermometer. I’m going to measure it.” Now this is the second compartmentalization. So he measures it, and now this is now science compared to the first area. Now, the stuff which comes over the television as science is practically all in this area. “80% of doctors recommend that you smoke such and such a cigarette.” Or that you don’t smoke at all, or that you use Listerine toothpaste. “Listerine toothpaste kills 80% of germs in your mouth.” Or 90 or 95, and this is science. And this is put across by men wearing coats, and that makes it science. Now, until you’ve isolated this out this way you’re still in kind of a major confusion yourself, because all of this stuff is just kind of dumped on your head and you don’t know which bureau drawer to put it in. (26:15) Now the next thing that comes along is what comes along when Mr. Newton gets hit on the head with an apple. And then he begins to formulate laws of gravitation. And there is cause, and there is effect. And there is one cause, and there is one effect. A man has a heart condition, and she works on his feet, and it can’t possibly affect his heart. You see what I mean? This is the classical teaching in the classrooms and the colleges today of science (27:00) And this is classical science. There’s nothing wrong with it, not a thing wrong with it. It leads you further along the road of knowledge. (27:14) Then you get to the-, that still is not enough. It is not explaining what you see. And along comes Mr. Einstein, and he puts his step, his foot very firmly into an area which lies beyond this. He says, there is not one cause and one effect, there is a relationship. (28:23) And this relationship is of primary importance, and it is just as important or perhaps more so, than the cause and effect relationship. And here, relationship becomes the central consideration. Here the numenon goes out looking for the phenomenon. Here the guy discovers [hershel] because he realizes - the planet Uranus - because he realizes that the tracings, these planetary tracings call for a body of such and such a weight before you can have this kind of a branch pattern. It’s been going on, but it took Einstein to talk about relationship. (29:05) Now this still doesn’t close the curve, in fact the curve never does get closed; it’s a spiral. And beyond that you begin to get something which is now approaching a first area again in the sense that, and “it is to me”, and I am the only one who perceives it. And there you begin to get into intuition and psychic development and the thing that Jung called – two things that happen at the same time - synchronicity. And that’s an area that I know very little about, and if I do know anything about it I’m not talking about it.[ ] (tape break) ( 29:55 ) But in another way, here you see the spiral is beginning to close. And here it begins to be you again who is doing the perceiving, and only you. And that which you perceive is the reality, again, to you. Which you’re handling it on a higher level than the kid that sticks her foot in the water and says, “It is cold,” when what she means is, “I feel it as cold; it is cold to me.” And these people that say it is this that and the other thing always forget to say “It is this way to me.” (Semantics) (30:32) Now, part of the confusion that we are in is that we never look at our language. And though it is this little word, “is” that is throwing us off. In some of the oriental languages for instance you don’t say, “the cat runs”. Now think of this sentence, the cat runs, and feel what it does inside of you. I mean this. Play with this now, “The cat runs.” (31:14 student) it leaves me motionless (31:16) it leaves you motionless? Do you mean that inside of you, something inside, deep inside of you doesn’t move? (31:23 student) The sentence implies that I am not moving (31:25) yea. What do you feel? Owen, what do you feel? (31:38 student) I feel a response to my cat running, and I feel a backward response in movement in myself. It’s just where I’m at this morning really. I’m kind of shattered (31:50) Do you feel some of you, do you feel some of you, that there is a tightening of your own musculature? That’s right. Now. Look at it the way an oriental would say it; he would say, “the running cat.” (32:08) now these are the problems of our language, and they are, all of these things are involved in the confusion in which we are involved. And the more of these things, the more of these confusions you really have looked at and understood, the more life begins to take on a pattern such that you can deal with it and change them. (32:43) You say the thing is red, and practically everybody in this room realizes that what you’re saying is not the thing is red, but that certain light rays of certain length are falling on my eyes, and I am calling them red; that these are the wavelengths that are being refracted back from this substance and I am calling it red. But that this is an understanding that is on a different level of understanding. (33:14)(thump!) I hope that that bird didn’t get hurt (33:17 student) it did (33:19) It did? (33:21 student) It dropped down. I don’t see anything come back up (33:29) so that all of this is part of the patterning that you have to look at. (33:40) Now, you also have to look at, in terms of your own professional work, what level are you upgrading on? What level are you thinking in? what level are you talking in? what level are you understanding in? now this becomes a very major consideration, for this reason – which you have all experienced – the guy that lives in the first area cannot even talk sensibly to the guy that lives in the second area, let alone the third area. The guy that lives in the second area who figures the absolute peak of science is the measuring of how many doctors recommend menthol cigarettes versus other cigarettes, he can’t talk to the man who is very proud of his third area science, because to him the statistics are the important-. And here we are, breaking our head to get statistics, and damning [Julian] up and down, because for 8 months he has not come across in the 2nd area! (35:08 student) besides [ whycha rosemary] (35:11)that is not a good [will] thing about him [happens] further out. In fact I screamed at Rosemary on the telephone just to get it out of my system last night and said to her, “you’re so lucky you’re not here!” (35:28) The guy that lives in the third area, doesn’t know how to talk to the guy that lives in the fourth area. “How can you work on a person’s feet and affect his heart? I don’t understand.” (35:50)You people are operating in a fourth area place, where it is relationship which is what you are dealing with; where it is not the thing, it is the relationship. And bodies work in that fourth area space! And you must learn to throw this out for yourself, because you are going to have just as much trouble as I have. These patients are going to say to you, “what does this mean Dr.? why is this so? Why? Why?” (36:51) “Why” is a dirty word, and it’s gonna get dirtier to you. It’s going to get dirtier to you because it’s frustrating you. But why, as an old saying used to say, is a dirty word. It is a dirty word because it conveys misinformation. You say to me, “Why?” and to shut you up, I give you an answer. You go out and you say, “She said”, and it now becomes dogma, it now becomes a cause. It is nothing of the sort. It is an opinion. And the more you see, the more trouble you’re in. (37:38 student) numenosity, that was the word that you used (37:45) numinosity, yea; when the numenon is looking for the phenomenon. (37:53 ) And you see, this is the level you are working in, and when these things first come in, they come in in terms of verbalisms. Jung uses the word “numinosity”. Jung knows what he’s talking about, but nobody else does. Now you are getting to a room in Big Sur where you know what it means in terms of three-dimensional material, to an extent. I mean, you’re taking the first steps toward making this stuff real, and toward dealing with it, and toward being able to deal with it, and toward being able to understand it a little more. I wouldn’t be surprised but what Mr. Jung still knows a little more, but let’s not go into that one. (38:46) But I do feel that this sermon today, is very rich in order to help you on your way, as well as to clarify some more of the material that is going to happen in this class. (39:07 student) Dr. Rolf, unfortunately we were late, so what are the four spaces you just-. without doing the whole thing again, are you referring to? (39:16) do you want to take that on? (39:24 student) I have some arguments with it. I mean, I’ll say what I heard. It’s not part of me. I have my own way of seeing things. (39:38 student) I’m not sure I know exactly what the first space was, but it’s basically saying “this is what is.” The example was, the little girl putting her hand in the water and saying, “the water is cold.” Stating a fact, rather than what she’s experiencing: first space. The second space is one of someone coming along and measuring. Taking and putting a thermometer in the water and saying “the temperature of this water is-,” and calling that science. (40:14) and therefore it isn’t cold (40:16 assistant) and therefore it isn’t cold, or whatever. Making a measurement and then. The third space is a simple cause and effect situation. Something happens-, the example is the apple falls on Newton’s head – although that’s far from the way Newton saw his world – the apple falls on Newton’s head and so he– (40:54) the way Newton, and the way we are now looking at Newton interpret that apple falling onto his head (40:57) so he states the theory of gravity, or possibly better, Galileo drops two objects of different mass, and they both hit the ground at the same time, making some compensation for air resistance, and from that he states a law of gravity. And that’s a third level space. a more intricate intellectual exercise in a sense, and visualization (41:30) May I interject here, this is a third level of looking at it. A third way of looking at it. All these things are ways of looking at it. (41:43 student) she would have proved that in the second level. And that Einstein was the third level. I’m confused about what – (41:45 student) Einstein was the 4th level. It doesn’t seem the second- (41:47student) Although there are 5 levels now. I missed one (41:55 student) the fourth level is observing, as I see it, noting empirically what is happening. Just observing. Seeing what is going on, and seeing it in a broad spectrum of impressions as you can get, and from it intuiting some relationship. (42:38) I personally [quall with that]. Do you people hear this as being what I said? (42:42 student) it’s not what you said, but it’s a hell of a lot closer to what Einstein did (42:49) I’m not saying what Einstein did, and I’m not saying what Newton did. I’m talking about the fashion in which people look. I’m not talking about what Einstein looked, I’m not talking about what Newton looked, I’m talking about people looking at what Newton looked at, and coming out with away of looking at things. And the same with Einstein. I’m not talking about those men. I’m talking about these men looking at those men, and there understanding what does on, and there understanding of – (43:24 student) I’m a bad guy to call on because I wasn’t taught this. I went to a very fine high school, [ ] high school of science, and I learned science! And the scientific method is one of observation and stating a hypothesis and then testing it, and then making it available to the world (43:43) That’s not the way the people who were brought up in that kind of science look at it. (43:49 student) yea (43:50) Those people in that school were to a great extent operating from a fourth level (43:58 student) That’s probably- ((44:00 student) and what’s the fourth level? (44:04) The fourth level is an understanding of the fact that it is the relationship that is the important thing. That relationship, as such, has a reality. (44:17 student) I don’t understand relationship, Dr. Rolf . You mean structural relationship? (44:21) No. I mean just relationship. I mean the whole bit that Einstein did. That’s why I used Einstein as an example, because Einstein trained the attention of the right as in look in time, let us say, to the importance of relationship (44:42 student) let me give an example of what just happened of what I understand you are talking about relationships, or what I think of as process thinking. Is that the bird that just hit the window and possibly died, and I , are in some kind of a balance, and his death undoubtedly has had some sort of a change in our balance in the world together. (45:00) he did (45:05 student) He’s now in a different kind of space perhaps, and the balance is in a different manner. He didn’t cease to exist, but he exists in a different fashion, and therefore I will also have to exist in a different fashion in some very miniscule way, from now on. (45:17) well I don’t think that there was anyone in this room, who when the bird hit the window wasn’t emotionally affected by it. And this is in a very real way. (45:35 student) this is what I think you mean by the fourth, or the relation (45:40) uh. Yes and no. what I mean by relationship in terms of what we are doing in this room, is pointing out to you that that heart cannot do it’s proper heart functioning except it has spatial relationship to its neighbors, physiochemical relationship to its neighbors; this whole relationship business is what’s going to determine that. That heart is not even an isolated organ in an isolated cardiovascular system. You talk about it as though it were (46:27) and the thing that participated me into this discussion this morning was of coarse my frustration at my inability to answer Don Schmit comment on what he saw going on with Mr. James. Because what Don Schmit was seeing was a change in the relationship of the tissues in that man which now made it possible for them to function in an entirely different level. And made it possible for Hector to say, “now this is different.” And actually everyone in this room heard the difference in Hectors palpation; it was a very real index. We weren’t in fact in that second area at all. (47:29 student) also, we have been getting into the last area to some extent– (47:30) Who knows (47:34) No. I think it was a much more real, 3-deminsional thing. This is what I’m saying here. You felt when you heard his original procession that this was scattered, that it was heavy, there was no precision, no zing to it. All of these things talked to you, and it talked to you in terms of real phenomena, which again would not be acceptable to people that are living in the second dimension – the second area – who want x-rays that they can measure with their ruler, etc. etc. (48:15 student) I see two dimensions sort of coming out for me. And at the first three levels are characterized by a rather static outlook and an objectivity (48:24) That’s right. (48:26 student) In fact the last two are more dynamic and more- (48:28) exactly so (48:30) so on a person on the one two or three level to come to the fourth or fifth he’s got to get in there and start moving both-, in every way (48:40) Now you see, the reason the way the general semantic boys, [Karskcipsky], got into this thick, is that they also were trying to teach thinking in terms of relationship. And they also were operating, were doing fourth level operation. And when they first started 35 years ago, they had an awful time trying to talk to people who didn’t understand this (49:12 student) and that didn’t understand [dating] and etc. and so forth (49:15) and didn’t understand that there is a great difference between saying to a fellow, “you are a liar,” and saying to a fellow, “I think you are lying.” That the one is acceptable; it’s a statement of fact. That, “This is my opinion.” That’s a statement of fact. And the other one is completely unacceptable because you don’t know whether it’s fact or not, and you have no good way of proving it. Etc, etc. In other words, this is an emotional operation and the other is a relatively rational reporting. (50:01 student) Or the difference between saying, “you frighten me,” and saying “When I encounter you I become frightened.” (50:08 student) One is taking responsibility (50:12) Well that whole business of general semantics, and using it in speech is a question of taking responsibility, if you want to look at it that way (50:25 student) What’s the fifth space? (50:30) The fifth space is an intuitional space, and again it begins to go back to the first space of “I perceive.” And that intuitional perception, or the synchronicity of Jung, many of these psychic phenomena, all that sort of thing and your perception of them. All of this sort of thing comes into that fifth space. (50:55 student) I was[ ]. In fact I’ve gotten [Korsipsky’s] Science of Understanding (50:58) it’s not in Corsckipsky (51:00 student) No, no. but I have-, one of the points he makes; he’s describing that the number one and one equals two. To a child [a ready] concept, and yet by [virgin Russell], somebody else, it took him 350 pages of short hand mathematical symbols to come to this place. So somehow the child was able to , you know, to see this – (51:25) what we’ve been talking about here, is what [Bachelar] tried to separate out in terms of how people think; how people perceive what they’re perceiving. In terms of their response to it, and of coarse the most primitive is this business of, “it is cold.” (52:00 student) Somebody was telling me that a typical dissertation, or examination, for doctoral candidate in anatomy is to say what happens when a cat jumps off a table. Now a cat, you know, isn’t getting his PHD jumping off the table. It’s the same thing. You know, it’s trying to explain in great detail what is an organic happening. The child knows that 1 and 1 is 2, but I mean, a lot of complicated aspects to that (52:53 student) I think that the confusion of the symbol on some other thread with the reality of some un- way of knowing (53:00) well come on boys and girls, we’ve got to get back to our own business here. I recommend that you think about this; try it on for size (53:12 student) one thing I’m just remembering, just watching it happen to-, just happened to be there when Giovanna was talking to this doctor down there, and her big point was that what she’s doing is changing spatial relationships. And it just occurred to me that seeing it as a sculpture really helps (53:34) She saw it as a sculpture, but she also saw it as somebody who is subject to an awful lot of Rolf talking. She’s been present in two or three classes , in which she wasn’t a member in the class at all, she’s heard this stuff over and over again, and now my thinking is that she is beginning to apply it to all her thinking including-, I would have said, and I might be wrong; that she as a sculptor saw this but was unconscious of it. And what I’m trying to say to you is that this area separation is a way of making you conscious of how you are dealing with a reality, and how the other guys are dealing with their reality. And Giovanna was trying to change the other guy’s way of dealing with reality by sort of fitting his hat over his head and saying, “Here, it’s cute. Wear it.” See, it’s not a way of looking at life, it’s a way of looking at the way you look at life. The meaning of meaning. It’s the epistemological profile. And its lot’s of fun as a subject for meditation. Its lots of fun for explaining to yourself why you are so bloody irritated because you can’t make people see. Of coarse you can’t make them see; They’ve never stood where you’re standing. (55:05 student) I’ve had the experience before, but especially now after being in this class, in fact on weekends and talking with a lot of the other therapists in the group about some case that we’re both [emmercent] with, and I- (55:15) in this group? ((55:19 student) No. in Pasadena; people I work with. And they’ll say, oh do you remember Mrs. So and so, such and such and such and such. And I’ll say, “Oh yea, I just saw her in the waiting room, and such and such and such and such.” And we’re not talking about the same person whatsoever. We’re just not really getting through (55:30) I know (55:32 student) It’s getting very frustrating, ‘cause I don’t know how to talk to them. My psychologist is very- (55:39) The only way we’re ever going to get out of this is to get more of us talking from the same level, from the same area; talking to each other from within these various areas and being conscious of what we’re doing as we’re looking at things from this particular area. (56:03) And you must remember that this profile I’m giving you now is probably 50 years old. A lot of change is made in the way people think in those 50 years. 5th Level Thinking Epistemologically (56:16) My experience with this fifth level of thinking is that it has a lot to do with how much a person is into his body and currents- (56:21) Are you talking about fourth or fifth. (56:23 student) I think that I’m talking about 5th (56:27) Well if I told you that’s beyond where I live, and I can’t talk into it. (56:41) Well where I’m groping on the frontiers of wherever I’m groping , whether it’s in the 4th or the 5th, I feel for me it’s very much related to feeling an organization in the body, and your own connection to that. And that’s I think why it is such a chicken and egg proposition with people who haven’t been processed sometimes, or haven’t experienced their bodies freely, and that as where for me it is important to include that as the work goes along; really work that aspect, and see where it changes (57:15) Well I compliment you. You’ve done a good job in expressing something that needs expression. Yea. I agree with all this. But you see, if you’re going out to “Save the world”, God help us, you’ve got to start somewhere. You’ve got to make up your mind, and put your right foot forward, or your left foot forward. And you’re not going to be a quarter of a mile from where you stand now until you put those feet forward, one after the other several times. And you just have to start, [ old Casey] used to say, you start where you are. You start where he is. And that’s the only place you can start. (57:58) but the more you understand of the way people, human beings think, and where they stand, and as you people would say, the space they’re in, the more able you are to see where the guy is starting, and what you’ve got to say to put his next foot ahead of his first foot. And for a lot of these people, the simplest way and the simplest place to start is with that physical body. And for a lot more of these people there’s another very useful place to start, is where Shutz starts; which is much nearer to where many people are than was the place where Fritz started. He was starting further ahead. He was starting-, intuitively he was taking a level of people who were more conscious of themselves, I think. This is purely my thinking, and I’m no expert in the field. (58:58 student) You know the difference between puzzle thinking and relationship thinking could be, I think maybe illustrated by fantasy encounter between Confucius and Aristotle, and Confucius says, “a trip of a thousand miles begins with one step,” and Aristotle says, “which?”… (59:14) Oh that’s nice. Your fantasy? Gee you’re bright (59:23 student) I didn’t mean to just [stun] that someplace. I don’t know (59:38) [if not we’ll go here by], here and now. Why don’t we put that in the bulletin. Somebody remember. Leigh! Yea. This is real good. At any rate I think we’ve looked at this stuff enough. Now. (59:53) This 7th hour we’re now going back to the [battle/bottle] land between 3 and 4. the 7th hour we did a lot of things which were definitive causes and caused definitive effects, remember? we put our finger on the tongues, and low and behold the 3rd vertebrae goes back. Now this is a third area thinking. “What muscle do I have to put my finger on Doctor?” (1:00:40 student) To make the third vertebrae go back? Which? (1:00:50) This is one of the reasons why I have such an exile for this whole muscle trip; “what muscle? What muscle? What muscle?” can you tell me every demonstration you give, some bright boy says to you, “Now, can you tell me just what you’re doing? What muscle is your third finger on? And what muscle is your second finger on?” and you say, “I can’t say, because they are not on muscles.” And they aren’t. the energy of your fingers is being distributed through the fascia. And your finger is not touching the muscle, and they’re not working on a muscle, and you can’t work on a muscle at that demonstration level. But you can’t tell that to those guys in that audience. Particularly you can’t tell it to them if they have MDs; ‘cause then they know you’re crazy. (1:01:50 student) I have an experience-, when you started working on Fritz, and you put your finger in there. I didn’t know the anatomy of that area, but I suddenly had a pain in the back of my neck. Well I don’t have all those names; I still don’t, but when you put your finger in his throat, I suddenly got a pain in the back of my neck. (1:02:14) that’s the fifth area (1:02:15 student) and then you asked him to feel the back of his neck and count down, and then I started doing it, and it was exactly the right place (1:02:22) that’s the fifth area. Get away, I don’t want you in here. [End] |
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